Brian Wagner on the Family You Build

but she had an incredible group of friends from college. So she was the first person to go college in her family.

She graduated, was a was a Chicago public school teacher for a little bit and then started having kids and thought she was gonna be a mom and then had to go kind of get back in the workforce. But her her college friends were amazing and some of them were incredibly successful people and they were always there to kind of backstop her and help her out and you know, just to be

the be there to listen and stuff like that. And they were and they were amazing to us. They're we call aunts and uncles. and it was just we were super lucky to have them all there.

And and you know my wife, I I I probably weren't learned one of the most valuable lessons from my wife ever is when I was at AT&T I was incredibly political. They they kind of draw you into, well where do you live? You should move to Neighborhood where all the AT all the you can ride the train with them. You can

know they'll ask you play golf. So it's all of sudden you're you that it was a giant there was this kiss-ass vibe at s at AT&T. And I jumped on the train full dis you know in full candor, right? And my wife Lily at one point said she's like, I you know, why are you acting like this? You're like, you're not being genuine. I you know, it was more I w wasn't about me being a good, you know, employee or person, it was me just getting ahead. And I just learned as soon as I kind of was able to kind of really internalize that and

kind of understand that changed it changed my life, changed my career because I stopped sucking up to people and I just decided just go just freaking go work

Good to see you, my friend.

So I am the second oldest in a family of four kids, raised by a single mom and grew up in a really nice suburb, Elmhurst, Illinois. And I would say the only interesting thing about us growing up in Elmhurst is for some reason my parents thought we should go to an all-boys preparatory high school. my older brother was really smart and I think he really kind of benefited from that, but

I don't know that it was the best place for me. but I did learn a ton. And I I learned a lot about, you know, the world. I saw a lot of people with successful families. And so it kind of makes you kind of want to aspire to more, I guess. So I think that that certainly did it. and the school was known for having like a Heisman Trophy winner, a astronaut, Olympic swimmers, NBA players, NFL players, and then there's a bunch of kids they sent to a couple of

the crappy state schools like Eastern Illinois. And I I was kind of in that I was in that camp. So I like to joke that you know, my dream was always go to a crappy state school and we took all we took all guesswork out of it by sending me to an all boys preparatory high school. But I learned a lot.

boys. Yeah, yeah. So my so my older brother was a year ahead of me and my younger brother went as well and he was three years behind me. So yeah. Yeah.

So my

mom, she went back, I think when I was in what, seventh grade, and went back to teach at the Catholic grammar school that we all went to. And you know, she made no money at all. And then about four or five years after that, my old my father decided to he didn't want to be a part of the family. And so he he kind of went on his own. And she raised four kids, put all through college. One's got a graduate degree, all in the a salary of a of a Catholic grammar school teacher, which I think back then may have been like

fifteen, eighteen thousand dollars. It was crazy. So it was all hands on deck to, you know, everybody had a job. You all, you know, there was seventh, eighth grade, you're mowing lawns, shoveling snow, all the stuff that I'm sure most the most kids do. But yeah, we kind of rallied together and she she basically gave up everything for us. So it's definitely definitely one of my heroes. And I try and kind of emulate that and how I raise my children as well, put them first.

Yeah, it was pretty much just her. We had a great aunt and uncle. Her parents had died very young. we had a great aunt and uncle that lived on the south side that they were always there to help. And they didn't have children. So they were really like our grandma-grandpa. And then she had one brother who, you know, she candidly well, he was a lot younger and and she probably took care of him a little more than he helped out. and he had his own set of things that he had to deal with as well. but she had an incredible group of friends from college. So she was the first person to go college in her family.

No, so my

yeah, so my well my older brother went to Marquette in an like an engineering program. And then I won I you know, funny story about that. So, you know, going to Fenwick or this all boys school, I everybody kind of goes to a small Catholic school, mid-sized Catholic school, Big Ten, twenty kids go to Notre Dame, that kind of a thing. So I was gonna go to the school called John Carroll in Cleveland.

And I was looking at St. Dora, a couple of the other kind of the the kind of the

D-III, tier three kind of Catholic schools out there, and my brother came home for Thanksgiving or Christmas, I can't remember which, and he's like, So what do you think for college? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm thinking John Carroll. He's like, What are you an idiot?

Like,

do you have do you have any idea what you want to do? I'm like, nah, maybe law school someday. He's like, No, no, no. You're we're paying for this thing. Go to go to go to Eastern. We had some cousins at Eastern, go go to Eastern. I like, Okay, well, I guess I'll go to Eastern. Super

cheap. Yeah. So we I I was able to pay for the whole education with maybe.

Five grand in debt coming out of it. So worked every summer, worked every spring break except one. So yeah. And then it was funny, after I went there, my younger brother went and then my younger sister went and she actually got a graduate degree in speech communication there and as well. So we it became kind of a a kind of a family school, if you will. And then we had some f what we call cousins are really kind of just friends of the family's kids that were there as well. But so it was it was

It was a lot of fun. It was a great community and I did everything I could to try and get kicked out.

I'm going here. I I I I have to

say, I, you know, we on a college for my oldest daughter, we did a college road trip, we looked at all these schools in the midwest and Dayton was one of them. And I was like, This is this is the school. Went to the Pine Club. The old lady offered my daughter in junior high school a cock like you get up a cocktail with your dad, you know. It was just I was just like, That school seems so cool.

so it's funny, for years I've said it doesn't matter. I I think where it matters is your first job. It took so, you know, I've now let's see I'm 61,

so

so my fur so I got out of college and took a bit of the summer off. It's about August, I went looking for a job and I had a neighbor next to a young neighbor who's maybe five years older than my brothers and I. And he was in telecom sales, selling phone systems.

I remember we were he was just over we're drinking some beers in our backyard and he's like, you know, if you're looking, you know, think medical sales or te or technology sales, one of those two. And he's like, with telecom being deregulated, you know, there's lots of jobs available, there's lots of growth in that, you'll learn a lot. And so I went to work for a small little telco called Lightel Telecommunications, and my base salary was fourteen thousand four hundred. it was it was a little it'll a little dicey, but it was just me. I live at home for

For a bit. And then I I actually two nights a week, a buddy of mine that was trying to get on the fire department in our town, he was hopping cars at one of Walter Payton's bars. And he's like, Come on, I can get you two nights a week. I would make two three hundred bucks a night. So that was my beer money for the month. If I could have five hundred bucks a month, five hundred bucks a week for beer and stuff like that. And not just beer, parking

cars. Yeah. So it was it was a nightclub. And so that was great. And then kind of got lucked into a couple of good bosses there.

one guy was amazing and then went on to start his own company. I'll tell I'll never forget what he told me one time. Literally, like in in the job interviews, like, you know, you're starting on sales. There's there's really only one thing you can control, and that's how hard you work. So if you got a high level of work ethic and then you have bad, you know, poor skills, if you will, for selling, because I knew nothing about selling. And he's like, you gotta you just gotta outwork. You have to make twice as many calls, three times as many calls to get the same number of sales as someone that's really skilled.

And he said, but the people that continue to work super hard, even as their skills go up, those are the ones that become super successful. I that's always stuck with me. and so I always try and you know kind of work as hard as I can. and listen, it was it was one of those sales jobs where this was this you didn't call people, there was no inside sales to give you leads. You basically got, here's your zip codes, start

walking, start burning shoe leather and walk in business parks. And so I

kind of lucked into it the first year. It did did really well. Then my my direct boss went to another telco called Sprint. So I followed so I started following this guy to a couple of places, which in retrospect probably wasn't the smartest thing to do. I probably should have had a better perspective on what I wanted to do and what my plan was. I was just kind of following his. And so followed him to Sprint and then he went to a startup telco that I helped open the Chicago office. Then he moved me to New York as a sales manager at like

This was all within like two years I had three jobs. And so I was a sales manager basically walking the streets of New York, walking cold calling up and down buildings, had to tune over the whole whole sales force. And then they were opening a new office in the suburb of Chicago, and so they asked me to come kind of come back. And I I was only gonna be there a year. My my wife was my girlfriend at the time and she was still in school, so I was not gonna make New York my permanent home. But it was a it was a hell of a learning

experience being on being on my own and doing that. But yeah, so then I

Had a bit of a falling out after we opened up the suburbs and started looking for a new gig

I my plan was make money. That's all I cared about. I I wanted to be able to make

money so I could afford my bills, help help out at home, and buy stuff for my buy for stuff for myself and you know start to have a good life. And I I kind of I kind of took a couple of left turns when I should have gone right with this guy. And again, I think, you know, he

I

was I was kind of his guy and I was I was I was listening to everything he said. I was kind of hook, line, and sinker all on him what he wanted. And in in retrospect, you know, it's not like he did me wrong. It's just that he was going one direction. I know I knew I needed to go my own path. And so that was really a good, a phenomenal wake up moment for me in terms of well, you know, figure out your path and what you want to do. And so I was I stayed in technology.

but you know, we can't we separated

Yeah.

Yeah. And and i in retrospect, I you know, it just like he just I it was it wasn't my vibe anymore. And I was, you know, I I'd kind of come out of school and I just kinda followed this guy. And I realized after a couple of years you gotta stop following. You gotta start kind of blazing your own trail.

Well, like I I left Sprint

to go to this startup and I was starting to do pretty well at Sprint after about three months. Like I'm was winning some

awards where a bunch and the guys that stayed there, I had a couple of guys that came that we all went at the same time. They all started back I you gotta remember back then, this is 1988. back if you could make a hundred grand, you were c you were crushing it

back in those days. And so I just wanted to get to that and sprint I certainly had a path. This is when like you know.

The internet is just starting. Data transmission is happening. they're building, they're selling video rooms to every corporation. So like the amount of money that was it was crazy. Some of these guys, but again, 100 grand. I and I decided to go with this guy at the at the prospect of this amazing startup. And it was pretty cool. They ended up selling it. So it was like some of the top people made a lot of money, but I I should have just stayed at Sprint and dug in and just, you would have had a great career.

I don't know that I would have I'd be here now if I would have stayed there though. So I I I c it's one of those things where I feel like I took this turn to go do the startup thing in New York and be a part of the you know, I try and run that and I learned a lot from it. I didn't have as much success as maybe I would at Sprint, but I also learned like how to work harder, I guess, or smart maybe even smarter and just I get my selling skills got better. So everything I like it I I feel like that all was good foundation for me in the end.

To kinda get to where I was.

So I went to AT&T and it was like a breath of fresh air. I it's interesting. I had opportunities to go work at an AT&T or other bigger companies right out of college. I chose not to go after a big company job because that's what my father always had. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I need to go a different path. I'm gonna be an entrepreneur. In retrospect, I should have realized you can have just as good if had a better crew at a big company with all the resources and the brand and just the presence and so forth.

So

I got to AT&T and and did really well. It was one of the top salespeople there three, four years in a row, went to every trip, and then got promoted. And then while I was promoted that year, basically is when telco was starting to fall apart. Voice over IP

so first started coming out, internet services were coming out. So date nobody's gonna buy a data line, you're just gonna use the internet. And these old kind of bell guys that were all part of part of our group, our team, our leadership team said, get the hell out of telco.

Go sell the telephone companies there. They can't buy enough software right now. Look at an Oracle, look at PeopleSoft, SAP.

yeah, and these guys were all getting these huge retirement packages because they had been with the company thir you know, the combination, whatever, 30 years. And I'll never forget we, you know, s AT&T would sponsor the the Chicago Auto Show every year. And so we're at this big black tie event.

And my wife and I are at this table with all these executives from New Jersey and all this stuff. And one of the wives is I was on this thing at AT&T called the leadership continuity program. So one, you gotta go get an MBA to stay on it. then you've got to go do a tour in New Jersey as the you know in the product organization. And then they pump you back out of the world to be a GM of a branch at somewhere in the US. And so one of the wives is talking to my wife and she's Well, we know we're anxious for your guys' visit to New Jersey. Well, I haven't told my wife any of this stuff.

that like there's the potential that's

gonna happen. And my just remember my wife's like, yeah, there's no way we're moving to New Jersey. And I'm like, well I guess we're gonna let's let's go dance now. Like, so I I my new my kind of climbing was over at AT&T.

And it so back to your original the original question about does college matter?

If I could have gotten the a good job right out, I probably would have had a good four year, five year run at a at a good company, made good money, and then then gone up. Instead I had this kind of circuitous route with a whole bunch of different companies across the the technology spectrum.

I I don't know. That it's a it's a good question. I but I'll tell you the advice I've given my kids is go start at something big that they're gonna invest in you and train you and you know really you know put a lot of thought into your career and things like that. And then after you got a good base and a good foundation, then go out and look where I felt like I was just hopping. I was like I was playing whack-a-mole with jobs.

a well I'm a big believer in adversity, right? That you know when you hang out a little diversity or you lose a deal or you lose something or you you don't do a good job in a presentation, the amount of learning you get, you'll you'll never make that mistake again. And and so I've certainly benefited from that for sure. So I I don't know, I just feel like I feel like if and again, I we were kind of on our own a little bit, but

And I I I actually think people were trying to give me advice and I was like, screw that, there's no way I'm doing a big company. I'm gonna, you know, go after these startup things. And I very you know, yeah, when I got to AT&T, I kind of just it was a it my career really took off after AT&T because I just I kept hopping around. I kept I stopped hopping. I kept stop I stopped hopping around as opposed to continuing on.

Yeah, because I mean I did I mean I went I had a little cup of coffee at this small telco software company that's old messaging systems and then

I got to Oracle and I had no idea. Like when I got the job at Oracle, my older brother, who's an electrical engineer and was work, he worked at DEC, he worked at a lot of you know high technology companies, like, do they know that you don't

understand anything about computers? I'm like, I think so. But

one of the benefits I got was another good reason for AT&T was they trained you on everything. So AT&T at the time had a competitor at Cisco, a competitor IBM. They had a mainframe called a 3B, they had all the tech all the telco stuff. Bell Labs wrote you and so

you were tr constantly trained and invested in. So when I got to work, I could really explain a lot of the things that around how a telephone company operated. And so I joined the telco vertical. I'll never forget I I had to fly to New Jersey. and I'm like thinking I got to get this job. And I was I was trying to interview with JD Edwards, PeopleSoft, any I I was just like get in software. Again, I had no idea how to sell software. So I go to this interview, meet the sales manager and she's like, yep.

I like you now. You got to get past this. We have our industry guy who's an ex-CIO of MCI. He and I just clicked and we're to this day still friends. And he's like, Well, here's what you're gonna sell. There's this whole wheel of applications you sell, and half of it's all these kind of telco applications, and the other half are these things called GL, AR, AP, FA, IP. And I'm thinking to myself, great. So I'm like, I close and I'm like, hey, so you know, are you know, do am I a fit for this? Or do you think I'm a fit? He's like,

100% he's these douchebag Oracle guys just trying to sell the database to SAP deployments. We need to go win the application business of telcos. And I was I was fired up. So

I I I I walk out of the office, I'm driving to Dallas, and I call my wife, I'm like, hey, great news. I got the job, package is gonna be delivered. I said, I think it's in a like one of these it's gonna be cool, it's gonna be fun. I didn't really know much about Oracle, to be honest with you. I didn't research it as much as I thought, but literally

I go, there's three one problem. I only know half of what I'm selling. And my my wife being accountant, she's like, well, what what are you selling? So I go through all the half this stuff I understand. The other stuff on the left side is like this GL. She's like, Jesus. It's like general ledger, accounts pay.

You know, I'm like, I had never had I I mean,

I took accounting my sophomore year or sophomore or junior year, but I ended up breaking my leg in an intramural game. So I couldn't crutch all the way to across campus to get to the class. So I dropped it.

So I learned kind of on the fly how to sell ERP systems, but kind of I I will say was in the right place at the right time to win this big telco kind of service delivery platform deal at a company called UUNet, which was part of MCI. And, you know, because I was from the telco world, I could talk to these telco executives. And I would start to be brought in by some of the what they call a core AE back then or an account manager.

And

So all of a sudden my name

all and all of sudden now the AVPs and SVPs like get Wagner on that account. Well it's all of a sudden I just because of what I was rep of the year. I just kind of I I I love there luck played a huge part of it in my mind, right? I was the right place, the right place. I I networked and met some of the some amazing people that that helped me and helped me get through a lot of it. And yeah, and had just an amazing career at Oracle. It was it was just it was I had more fun than I I ever

thought I'd have.

Yeah.

So it's funny it

me was pretty simple. I just want to be an AE. I want to make as much money. I like when you hear about these guys making a million, two million dollars, and this is nineteen ninety-seven, ninety-eight. I'm like, I gotta I gotta do that. That's what I want. All I wanted was money. And I and and a good company, right? And so my first year at Oracle, I crushed it. Second year made number, third year made the number. And then there's a big reorg and Keith Block came in to kind of run everything up, you know.

And I don't nobody else knows these names, but you and I do. And I got put in with and Tony Fernicola's crew and Jane Kaufman and they just like they took a liking to me. but I never wanted to be anything other than AE ever for the rest of my life. And they promoted me. They promoted like three of us that they're like, you guys are gonna quit. So we want to get you on the manager track. So then I was an RVP and then, you know, we were working together. I got promoted up to an AVP. But I literally

didn't politic at all. I said whatever was on my mind. If I thought something was wrong, I was very vocal, very passionate about it as well. And so I, you know, I think for me it was a that lesson I learned at AT&T that night with when my wife kind of called me out on it is really kind of it it helped me a lot. It helped me understand that like don't don't don't be a politician. Just go to work and be genuine.

That's what I try to do.

Yeah.

Yes. yeah. I and and she was spot on. Well, it'd

be like, this person to the point where we literally looked at buying a house in Naperville. So I could so we'd be on I'd be on the train line as the AT&T execs. Because everybody's like, you you gotta be in the club. And like, fuck that. So that best thing that ever happened was me getting out of AT&T. It was a great thing me getting an AT&T and then getting out when I did was was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

He was at 3M. Yeah. Yeah.

So he had a he had a really good career. yeah, 3M.

yeah,

we we don't even talk there. It's I he's been gone longer than he was around. But he he ever once in a while like when I had my first daughter was born, he called and he's tried to it's just you you don't get I we've got kind of a we're all kind of a aligned on the family side on this. And the reality is you don't you don't get to enjoy the good times if you didn't be there to kind of help in the tough stuff, right? And so

Yeah, but I'll t I so I loved it. I I'm

telling you, I had I had more fun at Oracle. I and I tell this pe I tell this to people at Salesforce, I never really felt stress. Not the stressful ends of quarters, but I like that. I love the core I love the the year end at Orac at Oracle, working on a deal till midnight of May 31st. I mean it the the action there was so much action action and energy that I I hit a ball.

And then about then about two years after that they made us all they made you had to pick. And I got the the reason I got to Tony and Jane was they put me on the tech side, not the app side. And there's another thing. Again, right time, right place. I went to work for a guy Doug Westoff, who you know who I think is just one

of the

best humans out there.

To me, it's to I was I felt like I was well I was very trusted at Oracle.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

It it was, but

I I I will tell you, when I took over the kind of that financial services patch, I really wanted this to be like a ten I wanted to have like a ten, fifteen year run of these accounts. I wanted to kind of really grow and I so when I walked into Allstate, they'd only done one one Oracle deal and it was basically to go under eight go under SAP financials. It's like the CTO, they'd all kind of they've had there had been like four or five AE since the first deal got done. So our almost our reputation was we don't stick to it.

You know, we're we're not, you know, we're very kind of flighty. We're we just want the next deal, like it just very not not long term, not focused on the horizon on the relationship, but focused on the week, right? On what the weekend's got. So when I walked into these accounts, I basically told them all, I said, listen, I I'm I'm in this, I I'd like to this be a 10 year run. If you like working with me and like and we have success, like I promise you I will look at the long term benefits for you, not short term benefits for me.

And I stuck by that and I I was lucky enough to be friends with a lot of a lot of the execs at Allstate, a ton at Aon, State Farm. I still have a guy that gives me a call every once in a while, and just wants to kind of chat about what's going on in the IT world. And so I I again I I I it was by design that I built those relationships long term. And you know, you had to gotta suffer you gotta suffer through some fools, as as you probably know what I'm talking about.

in some of those, but it's all about, you know, how how do you focus, how do you understand what they're where they're coming from? Because they're trying to kind of grow their career as well. And then how do you kind of just make sure that listen, there you're you always have short term pressure. I never tried to let that short term pressure hit the account. I mean I've always had you always got to ask for a quarter end favor or now a month end favor in the new world we live in. But back then it was I'm gonna focus we're gonna we're gonna do the right way of selling.

We're going to win the right projects and it's going to be a deal at the end of the year. And at Oracle, it I was lucky enough that that strategy worked out. But I also at Oracle, I was paired with arguably the smartest SC in the world at Oracle. No, Dom

I mean, and I, you know, it like again, we've I I would get these meetings set up and it was just like, it was like bringing in the closer. and he was just amazing. And then I learned a ton from him.

I think he learned a little bit from me in terms of you know, how an AE really needs to kind of position this stuff and how you build a long-term relationship and not just be kind of tactical but be more strategic

in the in the relate in the AE relationship. So we were kind of a good kind of one-two punch. and we live in the same town, our kids went to high school together. So it like we it was we're we're really close, and I got very lucky to have him with me because I again I not everybody got a DOM and he was a big part of we sold some.

Pretty, pretty complicated things for sure back in the day.

I do. I I I do. I I think

you you probably can. I there's probably certain people can. I don't know. I to me it's there it's kind of a three-legged stool. It's how hard you work, it's the people that support you. And then I think it's also, you know, kind of being in the right place at the right time. Now some of that has to be, you know, you hit you've got to do some good things to get into that right place.

No.

Well empty.

I appreciate that. I I

I will tell you, I I learned that. I learned that what being partnered with really good SCs and watching other really good kind of tech salespeople.

So learning how to value sell like that and solution sell was huge. When I when I when I uncorked

that, but I think also that's because I always was on the app side. Like I liked the app side more than the tech until I understood the tech and I realized that all the money was in the tech side.

There was I will I do have to say it it took me a couple, two, three years. So I'll be honest

with you. I I was holding out for dear life in some of these meetings. but it was it was good.

I no, I fought it. I well I didn't fight going to tech. I

wanted to sell everything. I'm like, why are we building a sales model that is built

for the least like the worst seller? We should build a sales model so that everybody can sell this stuff. And they're like, they had decided absolutely not. I think it was Keith that was Keith and back then, I think it was still.

It was Safra… Ray was gone, but they're like, we want individual sellers for both these. Then you come to find out that Oracle had a whole design on buying JD Edwards, PeopleSoft, stuff, So

that made that made a lot of sense. but no, I if I if I was put on the app side, with those accounts, I would I would be gone. I probably would have gone to Siebel or something, so just another another kind of apps company. But again.

This was basically y you just you gotta

call. They basically gotta call. I said, Hey, I'm Doug, you're but you're gonna be on a team like, well, so I just wanna let you know I disag jump this you know, back to my non AT&T kiss ass. I was like, I just wanna let you know I totally disagree with this. Totally. This is the I think this is a horrible decision by the company. I don't I'm I'm not in favor of this. He's like, Well, good to meet you. Look forward to working together. You know,

Doug was great. And

And I'll never get that. I got sent to like another like a leadership thing at at Oracle like the next year. And we our whole pitch to like the executives was put the sales teams back together. And they're like, Yeah, you guys are disqualified. Yeah, this you're not even you're not even gonna chance to win. Like they already gave away a watch or something. Like, you're

out. Like we're this is what the company's doing. We don't want to hear anything. So just shut up, Wagner. You're a tech guy. Like, okay, I'm a tech guy. But it was wild.

Yeah.

Think, well, we have the same birthday, number one. but no, I think Doug is the the perfect manager for me with you know, my as my ADHD, ADD, whatever, whatever that is, where I'm just gonna I'm running and I'm moving fast. Doug is very calculating in a good way. He's very unemotional in a good way, he is super smart, right, in like just in intelligence off the chart. So I think.

That was that was super helpful for me. But then the one thing he didn't ever do was ask me to be different. He kind of let me run. and I think that was super helpful. And I think he trusted me in some respects. Now, I made some mistakes and you have to kind of help correct some of these. And you know, especially as we started kind of working together at the beginning where he didn't understand how I was forecasting and more pressure on him forecasting and so but I think I learned I learned a lot from him.

from a leadership perspective also in terms of, you know, just sometimes it's important just be a little more calmer and not be as as nutty as you are as an AE or how as passionate. but no, I think I think Doug looked at me, I think I complimented d what Doug had, and I think Doug complimenting complimented kind of the things that I was lacking.

Yeah.

I was see, I was at RPP then. we had had at Jane's level, we had made the number by Christmas for her at her level. It was just unbelievable. So she had this big meeting in New York for for her entire crew and we had a big rent out of Italian restaurant, we're all this Italian restaurant and

There's a guy there that I I r ran this UNET deal with early on. And he was always he was always had a little bit of sour grapes, always complained a little bit, did incredibly well, incredibly bright, but just just not didn't really get along with everybody. But I he and I were buds ever since my first year. And at this big thing, Jane's like, hey, I want you to sit next to me.

because we she had we had caught up in a while. And so I'm like, all right, great. So sitting down, having a great dinner, And so I go up to the I go up to the bar after dinner, I'm talking to a couple of guys, and everybody's complaining about how much money we're making versus how much money the executives are making. This is another really good lesson I learned. And

No, no, we were all kinda we

were all RVPs. We're just like, well, th those fuckers, they're they're getting all the stock. They're not giving us money. And and some of it like I was like, I I don't I feel like I'm being compensated. So you know, one shot leads to another shot and you're drinking, and then all of a sudden everybody's kind of pissed off. And I go sit back down and Jane's like, What's going on over there? I said, I don't know, but you know what? I'm done. She's like, What? What are you talking about? I go, I'm done. I said, I quit. I'm quitting. She's like

Are you out of your mind? I'm like, no. I said, I I think I'm done. And let's it's just like, okay, go back over there. This just like kind of blew me off. So the next morning, I'm I leaving the leaving the hotel. yeah. no, no, it was it was drunk talk. Yeah,

it was stupid talk. It was like, but again, but you like I let these guys fill my head in with this, and so I'm just like, stop, these people are doing great to us.

I mean, then you start to hear what people other people make and you know, all sorts of jealousy and things come into that. So especially

if you have a couple of cocktails. So we get to the meeting. Well, first off, I'm walking down the street with Donny Nepper. He's he's like, Wait, did you see my coat? I lost my coat last night. I'm like, no. I said, he's like, and you know, you quit last night. I'm like, okay, I was hoping that was kind of a bad dream. He's like, no, I think you're you're like, good luck, buddy. So I'm like walking in the Oracle office.

Everybody's loading into this big this big meeting room because we're all having there's a big a whole meeting kind of QBR. And Jane's like, okay, anybody find Donny's coat? We can't find Donny's coat. This is like there's probably a hundred people in this room. He's like, Where's is Wagner here? Where's Wagner? Raise your hand. Okay, yeah. Yeah, and he quit last night. So I'd like to see you at the first break, Brian. I'm like, boy. Okay. So I the first break happens. Like I'm walking in, we go in her office, and she's like, What the fuck's wrong with you? I'm like, I don't know. Let me just first start by saying.

I apologize. Like, no, don't apologize. All you Irish guys, I'm married to one of you guys. All you do is like you tell the truth when you get a couple cocktails in there.

I'm like, Jane, I am so serious. Like, well, no, what's the problem? She's like, I I I think I'm underpaid. She's like, I don't even know what you make. What do make? I tell her what I make. She's like, you are underpaid. So

so it was a good lesson. Just like, you know what? If if you feel like you should be paid more, fucking go ask for go ask for it. Don't, don't,

don't bitch about it.

but again like it it became kinda

No,

no, no, they you end up kind of fight for it. So but again, and then you know, Doug and I were in the meeting sitt next to each other and just the whole time looking Doug Doug isn't pulling me aside going, Why would you do this? You're making me look bad. It was he's just like just patting me on the back. It's like it's all gonna be okay. Don't worry, it's all gonna be fine. But so but again, we were more like a family than a than a like there wasn't a hierarchy was she like Jane was more like an older sister than than my second level. So there was this level of

you could you could really kind of speak freely. At least I felt like that. I could speak freely. And I would speak like that with Tony and the guys that ran all the SCs, the strategy people. I just again I it went back to I'm just giving you myself. I'm not gonna

Very. I really do.

you

know, I it we got I got close at a couple of jobs at Salesforce. and but you could tell when when Tony didn't get that top job and Mills got it, Keith went away, and you you could just tell it was gonna be different. And Salesforce is entering a different world back then, right? They were not like sa they are not winning SaaS, they're not winning cloud. So I I knew I wanted to leave and I was kind of waiting for Tony to go where Tony was gonna go.

I mean I knew I needed to go my I mean I when I was at Oracle, I knew I wanted to go learn cloud computing, go run sales at a startup, and you know, see what happens. 'Cause I'd never done a r a real startup in the software world or anything. So yeah, I mean when to I'll never forget I was at back then I I think you remember I had a team on Walmart so for ten years. So I was down in Walmart like every other week.

And Tony was the exec sponsor. So we're both we're both down there and he gets his text. Keith Keith just got announced as the president COO of Salesforce. Tony's like, okay, go into Salesforce. So it was all predetermined that Tony was gonna go. And then I'm like, Salesforce? Why what about go? Well, I thought we'd go to like some cool like MuleSoft

I didn't understand Salesforce at all.

Like other than, you know, Cannon and I lost the deal at Aon to Salesforce. I I I didn't understand the w I thought it was just a crappy CRM tool in the cloud, right?

Come to I come to learn it was a whole bunch more. but then I just learned I learned a ton about the business model also on how you know customer success is probably important.

I really kind of was super

truthful. I wasn't trying to be like the Oracle guy and I I just w I wanted to learn.

yeah, you want a Keats guy, want a T well the funny

thing, I'd be in these meetings and they're I'm Well, you worked at Oracle. Like, yeah, that's true. Everybody did. So it's

like, I don't know, like, what are they talking about? So, but it again, I I I all the guys running or say Salesforce that I mapped to back then were all ex Oracle guys, and a bunch of them knew me. So I had a reputation that kind of preceded it. So they knew I could be trusted to run a deal, I could be trusted to kind of do executive stuff.

So it it it just it worked out. It really worked out. And then three years l three years after that I went to a startup and ran sales at CloudCraze. So I I don't get the CloudCraze without going to Salesforce. I don't get Salesforce without really building a a tight relationship with Tony and Jane and Keith. So it's it just kind of the all the dominoes all kind of fall as I look back at it. I don't know that I had a design when that happened, but it worked out.

One year. One year total. It's like April to April. I it would have been

nice for get another year or two. I and I'll tell you, I would have loved to take another crack at that because there was like it was a crazy place. It was I learned a ton. The people that ran it were incredible. I mean, I'd done

this a number of times, so I learned a ton from them. but I I I'd love to have almost not a redo on it, but I I'd do it a little bit different. I would I would run the sales team a little bit different.

I I played just super sales manager and super sales guy in that role. I and because we knew we're trying to get sold. So everything was just get more deals, get more deals. but it it was it was a great learning experience. Then then to come back and be a part of that commerce team for eight years after or seven years or whatever it is, was great as well because it was fun to kind of come back home and you know, I would I people knew who I was. So it was good. It was a it was a a very fun run.

Yeah, for for me I would say both different experiences, some similarities, and I I truly appreciate both. I I don't I don't have a bad word to say about Salesforce. I don't have a bad word to say about Oracle and you know in my new world that you know I'm I I'm done working. I'll I'll I'll be unemployed on Thursday for the first time in I don't know, since high s since eighth grade. I may I might be back at one of those companies in the near future as well. So I I think I've

You know, there's no bridges burnt, so it's I talk to those guys all the time. I the company I just am leaving is a big services provider in the Salesforce world. So we've done a lot of good work there. But no, they were they were definitely two different experiences. I would say if I could pick one, I think financially Salesforce was off the charts better. But Oracle, like there was a good ten year run there. that was just

Mm probably the most fun with the most fun people and it it was just a blast. It really was really fun.

You know, I I well, I mean it I candidly, you know, super lucky, right? If I think about how, you know, you and I started working together, it was freaking dumb luck, right?

Cannon get gets acquired. I I'll tell you the f the meeting Cannon the first time. So you know, Cannon was the PeopleSoft rep on sprint. I was the Oracle caps rep on sprint. He beat me in every single deal. Every deal I lost to him. And then we've sold this big project, then I end up leaving the

account to take all the financial services stuff. But like he we just kind of got thrown together. And I'll never forget he was put on Aon, taking off sprint after the acquisition, put on Aon. And so we have this breakfast meeting, we're going to meet the CIO, the chief procurement officer, a couple of other executives, who again, they all know me. I've had the I was the global account manager around Aon at the time. And Cannon's like, there's no fucking way I'm staying at this place any longer. This I'm not this Oracle thing, screw that. He's like, I'm gonna go to work day, everyone's gonna go to work day. And he kind of just, he's like

kind of like this Doug Westoff guy. This Wagner guy's dominant Ronald likes it. This is a

pretty talented group of people. And then started making some money. And then he I pulled him from the app side to the tech side. and he's had a tremendous career at Oracle. He's back at Oracle having a great time. So I think I got I got lucky with Cannon but we just hit it off and I think we saw eye to eye. Same with Cavanaugh right it in truth be told Cavanaugh gets acquired Stellent gets acquired. Cavanaugh's a leader

He comes in and then they do away with the leadership of that co-prime group. Then he's he says, Yeah, I'll be an AE under Wagner. He should have been the I should have been working for him because I had just gotten promoted. I say that to him all the time. He's kind of he kind of we we laugh about it, but I got lucky with him.

Yeah.

Yeah, I

I think I got a pretty good you can tell if somebody's gonna be good at what they're doing. and I I think I'm pretty a pretty good judge

I

more more gut, I would say, more gut. like the the the the CEO of the company that I'm that I that I work for till tomorrow. incredibly smart. And I I think you know to me, if when you see people being really smart, not just in technology, but in business and how they run a company, without trying to draw a ton of attention to themselves, though that pe those are draws for me. Those are people that I want to go with.

Like I'm I'm not big on I'm big on humility. I'm big on like I I I like humble folks. I like to work with humble people. I I also think this is a complete this is very much of a team sport. And I don't think the AE ever deserves all the credit. I think he shares that credit with his leadership team, the product team, the SCs and the consulting teams. So I I think looking for people that kind of have that vibe, I I I do well in those kinds of worlds. I don't do well when it's it's, you know.

It's all about the leader, making the one leader look good. I I don't that doesn't I don't last long in those kinds of places.

I, you know, I'm trying to think back at Oracle. I Salesforce, I would say so I I cut there's been a couple. If I just go backwards chrono chronology chronologically, I would say after we got acquired with CloudCraze and I ran that B2B team. I mean, I was relieved of my job in December. I got a call. They said, Hey, we're gonna make a change for this for next year, but you gotta stay and finish the year out because I'm sure you you know, you wanna stay at Salesforce, don't you? They knew I had all these shares that I just that I was on a four-year vest cycle with.

So it was a little disingenuous on their part to do that. but they also did it because they didn't follow the business plan that we wrote at CloudCraze for how that product should be in Salesforce. They basically put it with a different group that the product never excelled, still hasn't excel, and it's the best product in the market for what it does. So that was incredibly painful and stressful. Like it was so stressful. I mean, if you talk to me that was working for me at the time, like the skin of my eyelids was like flaking off.

It was I had some weird stress reaction to this whole thing.

It was crazy shit. So that was horrible.

Well I've I that

I I I'll tell you one the things I I try to always do is never let the the the shitball run down past me, whether it was an AVP or an RVP. I like I want to contain it that so that the team, you know, stays focused, keeps working. So I think I'm pretty good at dealing with stress.

again, it's I like some of this really isn't that stressful. That that was rough. And then I I got demoted. So I took a demotion.

stayed with at B2B Commerce and then they promoted me like eight months later back to the job I had. It was it was that so that was kind of crazy. I would say business wise

It was a hint to my ego. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

And people knew, right? People knew who I was when I came in and like and then all of a sudden like I got I got put under a guy that a lot of people didn't really respect. I tried to help him as much as I could. Good guy. but you know, I was at a kickoff and one a couple of young little are you know, people kind of said some stuff and they were drunk when they said it. I was like, and someone's a little one of the senior VPs pulled pulled me, I'm Why are you doing this?

Go, you what, I believe in this. And I think sometimes you gotta believe in something bigger than yourself to to have success. And I'm gonna I'm gonna see this through. The guy looked at me like, You're fucking crazy, dude. Like you could easily just take a core job and make a I'm like, nope, I'm gonna so I'm a bit of a bullhead when it comes to some of that kind of stuff. but again, it like yeah, it

did because we got better every year at it, and then we crushed it like four years in a row. Like when they put us in this one group with

the numbers that made sense based on the market and so forth. But it was that was a really good it was a good learning experience.

No, I don't think so. No. No, I yeah, three.

Yeah. It's funny, I was out with two of where was I? Where were we? We were just I I was the Cubs game last week and I met I I kind of left the Cubs game earlier. And we're talking, they're like, they're like, Dad, how did like you you paid for our colleges, you're paying for these weddings, you got like we you we went on vacations every year. It's like

Like, we had a great life. And I'm like, that's all I need to hear. I'm good. And so I don't think they they they never felt it. And I also would do stuff like I'll never forget, OpenWorld was going on one year. And my oldest, I think, was in the playoffs of volleyball. And I literally, and and again, this is having great leaders. I said, Listen, I don't miss the good kids' games. So I literally took a I had a breakfast meeting at Oracle. I did an eight o'clock meeting, I think it was at a 10 o'clock flight back to Chicago. Went to the game.

Got back on like an eight o'clock flight back to California and was there for like an a an after bar thing with some clients and stuff. And then I was there for the next day. But I was given the ability, I was given the the leeway to do that kind of stuff. but I my kids, I try to never miss stuff. I coached them. So I I wanted to be a part of their lives as when they were little and stuff like that, and you know, be present. And I it listen, it there's many times that I was gone.

So it was my it my wife shouldered a lot. We got great kids and I the my wife's amazing. So that's the big reason.

Two, yeah.

Well, I

so it's I got a funny. So Lily, we were saying babies. I before we even have babies, we were telling my wife like, you know, I I think I want girls. She's like, Really? And my wife would be a great mom, Danny, but she'd be a great boy boy mom. Like she's an athlete, she loves sports, she like she pulls pulls punches,

sorry, you know, you know where you stand.

And she's like, Really? I said, why? So because you know, every time you go pick up a girl, like, okay, dad, I'm going. They get the like dad's like on a pedestal. I'm like, I think that's what I want. And my wife going, like, well, what are you gonna do when you know the guy with the nose ring shows up to pick her up today? I'm like, you're right. I want all boys now. And then in my family, there's 10 grandkids, 10 girls, not one boy. So my brother has four daughters, my sister has three three daughters, I

have three daughters.

And they are the coolest kids on the planet.

yeah, I knew I knew I wanted this. I knew I wanted financial security. I knew I wanted my kids to have financial security and not have to, you know, kind of struggle, right? That they could, you know, work on what they need to be successful.

So I mean, we've been in the same house for 32 years. Like we're it's it's pretty good. I there I still think there's some some great times ahead though.

Thank goodness. So

we'll see, you know. but you know, I got one daughter married now, another one gets married in May, grandkids, hopefully, any any anytime soon. But it's yeah, it's it's it's it things have really worked out.

He probably he probably wouldn't listen, number one, because

I was really bullheaded when I got out. I think the one thing I would encourage my younger self to do is go like I one of the things I see now, like like I've got friends of my kids, fr friends of mine's children call me all the time. Hey, I'm looking at this company. Can we talk can I talk to about this, right? So there's this kind of there's this kind of collegial atmosphere between the dads, wives, and

kids, boys and girls. And for a while I was joking, I was like the Glenbard West recruiter like the guidance counselor for jobs. so I I I would have given myself advice like, hey, you know what? One of your mom's friends is an executive at AT&T. Why don't you talk to them? See what like fit like do more research into a path as opposed to I was just like okay I got I looked like what coming out of college I was like copy your sales business forms telco

I'm like, this light tell thing. I'll what?

And like nobody really likes cold calling, but it's a it's a necessary evil. But it's amazing when you do cold call, how how many amazing things happen. Like, I'll never forget like just cold calling on like a Friday afternoon. Like the owner of this company comes out. He's like, I love a sales guy that's cold calling on a Friday afternoon. Come on in here. What do you? I'm I'm I can't buy you everything, but I'm what can I buy from you? Like

So I was like, Okay, all right, there this something about this activity. Keep it keep it

and the thing also that I see people kind of make the mistake of also is just like being a little too closed off, right? They they like just be open. Like be open to like calling on someone in that account you never called on, working with somebody on a on a on a partner team that you've never let that you think might be able to help, but like like think about your business in a way that you're a general manager as an AE, not just an AE, if that makes sense,

Yeah, I I definitely I mean I think everybody's got regrets, right? And and not big regrets, but like CloudCraze is good example. I would have I would have carved out more time to be operationally efficient. And I think everyone knows I'm probably the worst ops guy as a sales leader there is. so I think that's something I but again, we were running so fast and so hard that I didn't do that. bad I think I I I could have I could have done a better job of that for sure. it all worked out, but I think

we would have had we would have been a much we would have more of a position of strength after the acquisition if we had kinda leaned into that a little bit more.

You know, I I

yeah, I I talked to back in the day I remember talking to like the Netezzas and a lot of one-hit wonders. I for me, it was never like when I was at Oracle, it was about being as part staying in this family that we had for 12 years. It wasn't about me what's what's best for me or what's what's the next hot thing for me. It was what's the next what's the next hot thing for all of us? And so that's I I also tend to try and as a leader, try and keep that kind of family.

vibe, if you will. Like an example of you like my first year at Salesforce, I was running the platform team back then, as you re as you remember. And I had a guy who running the West Coast who basically after a month is like, well, I was actually supposed to be the guy promoted to get this job. So I've already found another job and I'll go, I'm gonna go be you in Brian Millem's team in SMB. I'm like, okay. He's like, I'm sure you're gonna block it. And for whatever reason he his walls went up. He didn't like Jane. He didn't like Oracle people.

I said, well, hold on. Is this a good gig for you? He's like, well, yeah, it's really good. Is it good for the company? He's like, yeah. I said, well then, yeah, 100% supportive. What can I help? How can I help you do this? And he kind of was flabbergasted another guy who like hated Oracle people and to this day, he called calls me once a quarter just to check in what's going on with him. He's in a different company. But I tend to kind of always look at what's best, not for me personally, but what's best for the group, what's best for the company, or that or that individual as well.

Well that I that's that's really nice to hear.

Well, I appreciate that. Cause I'll be honest, like I don't I don't think of it that way. I don't I don't you never know if you're if you're making the impact that you want to make, right? In the end. Well, thank you. Well, that's incredibly kind. Thank you. No, all good, buddy. This was this was fun as a walk down memory lane, man. Next time let's have a glass of wine with this puppy.