John Mattingly on the Goal Line that Never Arrives

But I I I will tell people all the time that perception of success.

is not reality all the times. it it's it's tough. It's tough. And you have to give up a whole lot to have this this goal that you can never reach. You know, no matter what you say, well if I do I remember the days, if we could do twelve million a year, I'd be happy.

And then it changed to $15 million a year, I'll be happy. And then it changed to $25 million a year, I'd be happy. Then it changed to $50 million a year. I'll be happy. It it just keeps going up and up and up. And you you never get to that goal line and you can never say, I made it, because it's never there. And that's where the pressure stays on top of you. And call that a competitive thing, call that drive, call that stupidity. I don't know what the right word is.

But that that's the cost.

Doing fantastic, Brad. Great to talk to you.

Well, my name is John Mattingly. currently in the construction business, but going way back when you and I met in college, went to the University of Dayton, grew up in St. Louis, went there kind of on a whim because I was not a great student in high school. somehow I got in. and it was a great decision. It was one of those situations that I didn't really know much about the school.

But it was a perfect situation for me. and I I met some great people and I really felt like that was that was home and I I was very successful in in undergrad. so it worked. It was perfect.

School was perfect for me.

living in St. Louis right now. I have three kids. my oldest son is at Ohio State Law School. He is 24. He's looking to be a patent lawyer. my daughter is at Berkeley School of Music in Boston. She's a junior. my youngest son, Blake, is a sophomore now, and he's at a school in St. Louis called I C D S hockey player.

Like I was growing up, played at University of Dayton as well. my wife, Vanessa, I met her in law school my first semester. my mom lives here in St. Louis. I've lived in St. Louis most of my entire life, besides my four years in Dayton and then a small period of my life in Tulsa, Oklahoma when I went to law school. but St. Louis is home. it's always been home. it's it's a great town. I I'd be here for the rest of my life.

it looked like I had a plan, Brad. You know, junior year, I I think the path started junior year. And of all things, our roommate, Glenn, when we first moved in together, Glenn handed me a book. And it was the firm, John Grisham book. And I I I'm not a big reader, and it was one of those books I picked up and I read it from cover to cover. And I don't know why I was fascinated by the book, but I I was. It was

It would just grab me. And I I started thinking about, you know, professional law. But I thought it was this this pie in the sky concept and I would never be able to get into law school. I was a good student, but I wasn't a straight A student, college. you know, I got B's. I did fine. And we were all sitting in our house one day and our other roommate Brian walked in with a stack of books, not books, but pamphlets.

that he had been down to the union and he was talking to law schools. And it just hit me. And I was asking Brian, you know, are you really gonna go to law school? And he said, Yeah. I said, well, what kind of grades do you have to have? And he said, Well, I talked to some of the really good schools, we need to be a 4 0 student. And I talked to some of the medium schools we need to be a be average. He said, but the most important thing was to get a good score in the LSAP and be active in school. And you know, I played hockey, I was president of fraternity and

I had everything. My grades were fine. but I just thought, you know what? I don't know what else I'm gonna do. So I started looking into law schools. took the LSAT and I actually I took the practice LSAT and I did really well, scored really well. So I started comparing where I could get in and I took the real LSAT, our senior year, and again did really well. And I I started applying to law school. So it wasn't a plan, but it was

more of an accident. It it was one of those things where it just happened. Just our friends, we were sitting there talking together. And it's one of those things like, Hey, maybe I'll try this. it really started by our roommate giving me a book junior year and one of our other roommates saying that he had talked to talked to some law schools. That that's how law school started.

No, no, I went to Tulsa.

So I I applied to a lot of schools. I kind of had to reach schools and I I wanted to go to Boston. I got waitlisted at Boston. wait it, wait it, wait it. I applied to some other schools and I applied to Tulsa. The only reason I applied to Tulsa is because I actually applied there for undergrad and I didn't get in.

really liked it. So I kept waiting for Boston and

never heard anything until August. so I went ahead and committed to Tulsa. moved down there and I knew absolutely no one. not a soul. I was terrified. moved down there. I was very young to start law school. I was 21 when I started law school. and I I was homesick and I wasn't homesick for St. Louis. I was homesick for my friends. I was home, you know, all my friends were all up in Chicago. They were doing their thing.

And it was a real hard transition for me to go to law school. but I I started grinding it out. And at one point I I met my wife now, Vanessa, our first year of law school. And I was looking at possibly transferring, possibly going back to St. Louis. I even looked at Dayton to go back to there for law school and finish up. And Vanessa and I started talking and she said, you know, John, why don't you try to get involved in hockey? you know, I played hockey for for UD.

I was far from a great hockey player, but I w I was decent.

And I started looking into where I could get active in hockey in Tulsa. So I literally had my bags sent to Tulsa, went to the local rink and went to a pickup game. And there's just random guys out there. So here I am in you know, in the first semester of law school. I got to the rink and I get on the ice and you would have thought that there's one rink in Tulsa, and I mean that's it. Very little hockey. And I got out there, there's probably 20 or 25 guys from memory.

And you would have thought that I was Wayne Gretzky. I mean, these guys were absolutely, my God, it was terrible. Yeah, exactly. It was early 90s. No,

it was absolutely awful. And as soon as I got off the ice, I had this line of guys trying to get me on the men's league team. I decided to go start playing men's league. I started meeting some people down in Tulsa.

And it was one of those little decisions that I looking back, I had no idea what a huge change in my life would happen from just deciding to go get active in hockey while I was in law school.

Yeah, I mean it it was just huge. It was it was a big decision. And what this is what happened. I started playing in the men's league and one of the one of the guys I was playing with said, John, we're dying for coaches in the Tulsa Youth Hockey Association.

so I I think I was 22 at the time. And I was a little nervous to do it because you know, you're in law school, you're you're overwhelmed first year with schoolwork, but I had I had nothing going on. I didn't know anybody. I wasn't going out having fun. So I'm like, you know what, might as well do it. So I started coaching youth hockey my first year of law school and I took on a little pee-wee team. doing, you know, I was doing well in law school. I wasn't in the top 10 by any means.

I was successful. You know, I was in the top

half of the class, maybe in the top 25%. but everybody after your first semester of law school is looking on the board who's gonna get the big internships, who's gonna get the big job for the summer, who's gonna go to Dallas. You have to be the number one person in your class to get this job. You have to be in the top 10 to get this job. You won't even get talked to if you're not this for this firm. So back to hockey.

I am in the locker room talking to my peewee team. And I think we had lost that game. And I'm doing my typical coach spiel. And I think I was on the boys a little bit. I was coaching a Pee-Wee team. I saw that would be a 12 U, I think, at that at that time. And I noticed a gentleman in the corner because parents were kind of coming in and out back then. You know, parents didn't know they weren't supposed to be in the locker room. Fine. And I noticed this gentleman that was standing in the corner.

while I was giving the speech and I could tell he was kind of looking me up and down. And he had a suit on, very distinguished man, probably 6'2, 6'3, silver hair. I thought he might have actually been one of the kids' grandpaws, but he wasn't. So I finished talking to the boys and I walk out the locker room and he follows me out. And he said, Coach, I turned around. I'm like, God, here we I'm gonna get hammered by some parent.

And he said, my name is Mike Barkley. And I shook his hand. I said, how you doing, Mr. Barkley? please call Mike. I can remember him telling me that because he just made me feel so warm immediately when I started talking to him. And he said, I hear you're in law school. And I said, Yeah, I am. and he said, You know, I'm a lawyer and I got a little firm downtown. if you have any interest, we're we're looking for some people to to

To help us out with some big cases that we're working on. and I said, sure. I I was I was floored. And he said, I I think you'd fit perfectly for our firm. so I was I was excited. And he gave me his card and he told me to call his secretary in the next couple days. So I called her and she said, Yeah, Mike said, come down. And I can't really let's just say it was a Tuesday and come down and meet with everybody. So I figure I'm gonna go for an interview.

I I go down to the firm and going back to the book, the firm, I go up and and go to this building and it is a gorgeous building in Tulsa, Oklahoma. An old oil building, an old just absolutely beautiful, ornamental, everything. Yeah, something I

mean it's it literally, Brad. It was it was like walking into that that visual that you have in that firm. And I go up and it's on the top floor, second to top floor.

And I get off the elevator and a receptionist comes from behind the desk and calls me Mr. Mattingly and knew who I was. And I'm I'm just floored. I'm like, what what is going on here? I'm 22 years old and you know, walking to this place. And she goes, Hey, come on downstairs. I want you to, you know, I'm gonna introduce you to the gentleman's name was Barry. And I I went downstairs and Barry's in a suit and he's real welcoming. I go in, hi, I heard all about you. You know, we're really excited to have you.

Come with me. And he goes, here's your office. And I said, What I would I didn't know what to I didn't even know how to respond. You know, no interview, no, no nothing, no resume. I I was I was ready to go without Yeah, yes, absolutely.

So he he comes in, he says, Here's your here's your desk. and here's Christine. She's gonna be your secretary. And let's go upstairs. are you about ready to go? And I said, Ready to go. I I was bored. I didn't know what what was going on.

And I said, Yeah. And we walk upstairs into this conference room and there's probably seven or eight lawyers and and Mike, the gentleman from the hockey team's in there, introduce everybody and they say, Okay, let's go, guys. And I didn't know where I was going. And Barry leans over to me. He he goes, We're we're going to deposition. And I'm in my suit. And I I said, We're we're going to deposition? And he said, Yeah. He said, Just don't worry about it. Just look across the table at the guy taking the deposition and

Just stare at them. So here we're here

we're off. We're we're off to the races and we go over to this hospital. And there must have been 25 lawyers in the room and a doctor that we were representing, most a bunch of plaintiff attorneys. And it turns out that the firm that I was walking into was one of the most powerful insurance medical malpractice defense firms in not only Oklahoma, but really in the Southwest.

any nasty cases that were out there we were involved in. when they got to our firm, they were they were going to trial. There was no settling. I mean these were really, really bad cases. So I quickly realized that I just because I coached hockey, I walked into what was probably the number one job that was on that board at the law school, everybody trying to get just because I lucked out.

And I met this gentleman in the locker room and I was donating my time to kids to coach. And I walked into this unbelievable situation, making more money. Yeah,

because I miss my friends. And I and I and and my now wife told me I need to go get involved. I would have never

Yeah, well, you know, after the fact I

found out that he told my mentor in the law firm, Terry, that he said, you know, if this doesn't work out, he's my son's coach, so you're gonna have to fire him. I'm not gonna be able fire him. So you know, it just it was unbelievable. I went back to law school and I was like the outcast because here I am this, you know, better than average student, but I got probably the best job you can get in Oklahoma. J by pure I I say luck, Brad. It wasn't

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Yes, yes. They offered me a full time job after that.

And they were they were just tough, gritty trial lawyers. They were all trial lawyers. They weren't real bookish. Mike's Mike's big deal when he hired lawyers, he always said, if I if I can get a guy or a girl and I can dress them up in a pink tutu and drop on the worst street in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and they can find their way home that night alive, that's why I want working for me. And that was

basically that was it. That was our law firm.

And Terry, who's one of my closest friends, was the they would put Terry in all the country courtrooms. And he'd go in there in his khaki pants and his blue sport coat, and he could talk to the common juror, where some of our other lawyers they put them in the cities and they could talk to the city jurors. They they just had it down and and we handled some catastrophic ter cases. But the nice thing about getting to know all these guys was Terry

threw me into the courtroom. I was when I passed the bar, I was the youngest attorney in the state of Oklahoma. I was taking depositions at 23. I tried my first lawsuit at 24. Terry just he he threw me into it. He said, listen, the only way you're gonna learn how to try a lawsuit is getting in there and doing it. So I think it was two weeks after the bar exam that I was first chair in a trial. and it

was in it was in Sepulpa, Oklahoma. I mean rural Oklahoma.

So it so it was a legal aid case. They would take a lot of volunteer cases and

little stuff. So I was I was taking those cases. and then and that's a great question. That's kind of where I had to make a decision on if I was gonna keep practicing law,

you know, I I got thrown into this firm and had a unbelievable experience and it it was great. I had some of my greatest friends, opportunities that

So I practiced about two years after I passed the Oklahoma bar. and I can't yeah, I

was coaching. I I've been coaching this is my thirty-third season. I never stopped coaching. I I take that back. I took one season off of my dad passed away in sixteen. but

I I still coached the whole way through. but I got to the point in Tulsa that I wasn't getting the ex the big time experience that I wanted. I got a little antsy and I I thought I should be trying more cases early. And I I felt like I was spinning my wheels a little bit and there was a little bit of conflict in the firm. I could tell some of the people were gonna split off and go s do their own thing. and I felt like I was kind of getting torn in the middle. and

I I just felt like, yeah, I I wasn't gonna get the opportunity to try as many cases. And I I talked to my boss about it, I talked to Terry about it. And I said, guys, you know, I want to be trying cases. And Terry said, Listen, John, the the cases that we have are so big here that you're just not ready. you gotta, you gotta, you know, try small stuff over and over and over. And he said, You need to go in the district attorney's office and start doing criminal cases and learn how to work a courtroom.

That's when I made the big decision that I needed to I needed to leave. And I I was should I stay in Tulsa and and join the district attorney's office or should I go back home because, you know, my family's very important to me. Vanessa and I hadn't talked about it yet, but I I made the decision without her that I was gonna go back home and I was gonna go try to get in the district attorney's office in St. Louis.

And that was I think in I want to say 1997, 1998. that's when I made that decision to to move back to St. Louis.

There

was. we we had we had been dating for, you know, five years at that point. And she she pretty much said, I'm not I'm not moving unless there's, you know, more of a commitment at that point. So, you know, I I had started planning to, you know, you know, buy the ring and and do the whole thing. So I was in Saint Louis for a very short period of time and then you know, she came up for the weekend and and that's when I asked her to to marry me and that's when

you know, obviously we started making plans for the long term. And, you know, she was she was in a great firm too. And she was trying lawsuits left and right. but that's when you know, she she decided that she'd move to St. Louis with me. So that was she stayed in Tulsa for about a year and finished up some cases. And then I I you know I stayed I started working at at the lumber company thinking that I was gonna take the bar and go to the district attorney's office.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And and you wanna talk about a winding path. I had taken the bar exam in Oklahoma and I did extremely well on it, passed it the first time. and you never as a lawyer, you never know as much about the law as you do the day after you take the bar exam because it all

it just goes away, disappears. so two years later, I tell my dad, you know, Dad, I'm gonna come to St. Louis, you I'll work for a little bit, I'll study for the Missouri Bar.

And work my way into the district attorney. I already talked to the prosecuting attorney's office in St. Louis, and that was the path. Well, I think it was July of 98, 97, 98, somewhere around there, right when I moved in back to St. Louis. And yeah, I did fantastic. I only had to take half the bar exam in Missouri because I did so well in the Oklahoma bar in the multi-state that I got waived in and all I had to do was take the Missouri procedural part. Well

typical as we are, and you and me and all of our friends, you know, I decided to go down Lake of those arcs and get drunk the week be the weekend before the procedure

part of Missouri bar exam. And I flunked the damn bar in Missouri after I'd been practicing for two years. I I didn't crack a book. I walked out of that test and I said, man, there was a lot of Missouri procedure on that test. And I I did terrible.

Here I am. I'm thinking I'm gonna go in the DA's office and I'm working at the lumber yard and I gotta wait six months to take it again. And I started studying my butt off at that time. And my dad was so mad at me because we had a plan to go, you know, get in the DA's office and and move forward that way. And here I am, I gotta wait six months to take the bar exam. I've been a lawyer for two years and I I gotta take the damn test again. So

Yeah, I I did. but during that time I I got a wild hair to s to go to business school. there wasn't much going on in St. Louis when I moved back and I applied to Wash U in Saint Louis, which, you know, obviously it's an unbelievable school.

Yeah, yeah,

no, as soon as I moved back to St. Louis, I went to business school. I

just I I just wanted to do it. I don't know why. I was just in the mode. So I went and applied to Wash U and they just started their evening program. you know, I didn't I wasn't sure I was gonna get in, but I got in because I mean it's you know, it's a one of top schools, business

schools in the country. And I got in, I start going to night school. So take you know, I was studying for bar exam the

the the second time after I blew off the first one. I'm going to night school. Vanessa still hasn't moved back. So I'm working all day at the lumber yard. and back then the lumber yard, you my dad had only owned it for a couple of years at that time. I think we had 12 employees. And it was a very small outfit. So I'm working during the day. I'm studying for the bar.

maybe seven, eight million years. Yeah. I mean it was not it was not big. I it was it was it was fine. It was it was a small builder lumber yard. It it wasn't very big at all. I think we had 12 employees, maybe, maybe 10, I'm not sure. but I would go to go to the office all day, work, go to school at night at Wash U and study for the bar exam whenever I could and took the bar exam and thank God I passed it the second time.

But then I kept going to school and I finished my degree at Wash U. I think it took three years at night school. I'd go to class, I think it was three nights a week, two or three nights a week. It was a grind. You know, I thought, night school'd be easy. It was a grind. It was it wasn't easy. I thought business school was more of a commitment than law school was.

Yes. Never never practiced again.

Never s I mean, I've I've been in court a few times for the company, tried a few little baby cases, but I never went back. things just kind of started working at the lumber yard. And we, you know, we started making some decisions to how to change things at the lumberyard. you know, I knew my my dad and I, yeah. My

d my dad had been in the lumber business since nineteen sixty five and he worked for a family.

up until nineteen ninety-three when the gentleman that owned the company had a massive stroke. And my dad had been running it for years. So I mean he was the he was the company. and he nobody in the family was interested in taking over. So he bought the company in nineteen ninety three. And then I joined in nineteen ninety seven. and again it was a it was a small operation and and

it it was literally selling two by fours and plywood to to builders and remodelers. and you know, we I came to the realization, we we came to the realization that we had to change because when you're selling a commodity, if if you're not massive, you you're not gonna survive. You're not gonna compete. I mean the margins are so thin. You have to have massive buying power. You gotta be a big operation. So about ninety nine or so we started getting into manufacturing

And that's when things really, really changed for us.

So it was in the emphasis, now it's called off site manufacturing in the home building business. building we started by building our own interior doors, putting together parts and pieces so you could deliver doors out that are pre-hung that you can slide into the the house, the rough openings of the house. And we started playing around with wall panels, which is kind of the way most track housing is built right now. So basically we design and build the walls inside the warehouse on a manufacturing line.

Instead of being out on the job site, hammering it, bent over, you know, this crude manufacturing process out in the field, we brought it inside and and start doing it in the warehouse. Not in St. Louis. Not in St. Louis. No.

It was starting to catch a little bit of speed in other markets. some of the large track markets, you know, the Atlanta's of the world, the Dallas's of the world, roof trusses where they pre-manufactured the actual trusses for the roof. That had been going on for probably 20 years, but walls really weren't a big part of the industry yet. but St. Louis is a very unionized town and we got a lot of pushback in St. Louis because we were it was perceived that we were taking away time.

in the field from the carpenters and they they would nitpick our everything that we built, they would nitpick us to death and complain about everything. So it was really, really hard to get these products out in the marketplace because the Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, the bottom line is the bottom line. Once the builders figure out that they can they can save money, they're to start paying attention to it. But I'm telling you what, unions can make your life very, very difficult when they want to.

And if if your carpenters are complaining the whole time, a lot of guy, a lot of the builders just throw up their hands. And this was the go-go years of the early 2000s. They just didn't want any problems. so it it was a tough, it was a tough transition in the early 2000s to get into the the manufacturing side of what we did. So at that point, I came to the realization that we were not going to be successful in this manufacturing process unless we started installing our own products.

and basically starting a carpentry company that we could we can control the whole process from our tagline of the company is from foundation to finish. you know, we take you give us our you give us the foundation and we'll take it all the way to the roof. We'll put the doors, we'll put everything in, and we'll have our carpenters install it. So we found a terrific person who had just lost his job at a big national place and and we knew he was really good. And we asked him if he had any interest in running a carpentry company.

And he agreed to. So that was it. That was 2003. we had taken these steps from little small lumber yard in the late nineties to start playing around in manufacturing in the early two thousands to now being in the install business in two thousand three. you know, we started out with one crew, three, three guys and a foreman. And now all of a sudden we're we're we're kind of controlling our own destiny. We're gonna control the the whole build process.

I felt like I felt like I'd be a good trial lawyer. I was good on my feet. I did really, really well when I was in that in those situations. I did fantastic in law school and trial practice and in those classes.

But I didn't want to work for anybody else, Brad. I knew that I'd have to really put in my time in a firm and and and put in 10, 20 years and eventually, you know, try to maybe start a firm by myself or, you know, who knows what it is, or be a major partner in a big firm. Or I I think that I think the freedom of working for myself and working with my dad, and I I think the fact that just started blowing up on us kept me.

on the business side of the equation. And there was plenty of things that I could do as a lawyer in the company. You know, I mean we were we we acquired a a a competitor in two thousand six. you know, I did the whole thing myself. we did in some industrial revenue bonds with the state of Illinois and had to negotiate with the state of Illinois when we moved our plant in two thousand four from Missouri to Illinois. I I was able to do that myself. all of our collections work when when people weren't paying us, you know, I was able to do that kind of stuff ourselves. we

Yeah, I use it every day. Yeah.

I think once you get a taste of that freedom, you realize that and I say freedom, that that's a tricky word. Y you have freedom, but you have the the biggest handcuffs in the world and a weight around your neck at the same time. When you own your own business, it looks like it's the greatest thing in the world, but it's a massive curse at the same time. You're never free.

But you're free you're free to only blame yourself and control your own destiny, if that if that makes sense. I think that's the freedom I'm talking about. I I wasn't gonna be laid off because the corporation couldn't I I I wanted that independence, I guess, is is the better is the better term for it. I didn't want to have to rely on somebody else for my own success and failures, because there were plenty of failures along the way.

Yeah, you know.

To be

to be honest, to be honest, Brad, I think I almost forgot about it. You know, I I I started working and working with your dad and the excitement of what was going on, I I just kind of forgot about practicing law. It just kinda happened. somewhere along the line, I I just decided this was gonna be my path that I was gonna be in a family business and my dad and I were gonna try to build something and and we we built something. it

It wasn't a decision. It was just one of those things that you you turn

around, you turn around, you look back and you go, When did that happen? I it it there wasn't a light switch moment. There wasn't a this is my path decision. You just look back and said, This is this is what happened. there there's there's no real defining moment.

I liked it. I liked it.

I it owning your own business again is it's the greatest thing in the world, it's the worst thing in the world because you are your business is your life. You're you don't ever leave it, you don't ever have a moment off. You have three you know, there were times, and we could talk about it little bit, there were times during the housing crash that you're waking up, well, I mean still.

You still wake up at three o'clock in the morning and start running numbers for for whatever reason. you you're n you're on vacation and your phone doesn't turn off. And two o'clock in the morning when you're running your third shift and somebody's somebody's on the line, you know, loses a finger, which has literally happened before, or somebody's we have a major fight on the line or something, you know, those things don't turn off. You don't have you don't have that freedom anymore.

So it it you know, owning your own business is a is a wonderful thing and it's a it's an incredibly difficult thing at the same time.

No, it it when I was younger, it didn't scare me at all. it's funny because my dad was always the one that was a little more risk adverse and I was always like, Go, go, go, go. And now I'm in my mid fifties and I I feel myself becoming more risk adverse. when you own your own business, especially as a smaller business, you're everything's on the line. You know, you you're signing personally for everything. you know, you you have to you have to put it all up. And if it fails, you're

everything that you've worked for up to that point is at risk. I think as a as a business owner, you just you just get to the point where there is no other option. You will find a way to succeed. You're gonna get up the next morning and you're gonna fight. You just can't quit because there's no option. If you quit, if you don't show up, you're guaranteed that you're gonna fail.

that risk you take is a risk in yourself that you just there you won't quit. You will refuse to quit. And there are many times that that I thought we weren't going to make it, especially during the downturn, the the crash of of seven, eight, that area. that I thought that there there were days that I I wasn't sure we were going to make it. but the you know being risk adverse is I I think just another term for being so bullheaded that you won't accept defeat.

I think in the back of my mind, I always wanted to work with my dad. And in the back of his mind, he always wanted to work together. if I had if I had gone to the DA's office and stayed there, I think I would have eventually left and and entered the business. I I looking back, I can't even fathom it. I I can't even fathom it that

that decision would have happened because so much has happened in between that point. And you know, it what if, no, that yeah, you know, every once yeah,

every once in a while I I I look back and say, you know, could I have been a great trial lawyer? yeah, I think I could have been. I think I could have been an unbelievable trial lawyer. Would I have been any happier? No, I probably would have had a stroke by now. you know, I'm I'm I don't you know I'm

I'm a pretty anxious guy, as you know. I get pretty wound up pretty quick.

Yeah,

Yeah, I think my dad and I my dad my dad was an only child. I was an only child. My dad had my dad grew up, you want to talk about with nothing. I mean nothing. and he was a he didn't have a whole lot of confidence. And I think when we were together, for some reason, you know, he he he wasn't highly educated and he always I think that always was like a cross he had to bear.

And I think with with me around when we started working together, it was a it was a confidence for him. But going back to the working with your best friend, my dad and I had a a very sibling relationship, more than a father's son. We were a a a a team, more than a mentor mentee concept. he relied on me heavily and I relied on his experience heavily.

We we would fight like siblings, but that it was over. You know, it's you know, neither one of us had siblings. So it was like we we we f we went into that that mode all the time. And we butted heads left and right along the along the path. But the end of the day w we were always each other's biggest supporters. But you know, it was tough. It's tough for my mom too, 'cause you know, she she would have to be the referee a whole lot of times.

to answer your question, we were we were extremely close. I was extremely close to my my mom as well. and still still am. but

I don't think I I think

I don't think it would have been if if I hadn't joined the company, I think my dad would not have gone down any paths of the manufacturing or or the changes and and all the changes that we made because he didn't have the confidence to do it on his own. He he was he he was just afraid he he he was very safe in what he did. And at at some point, and this is not a knock on my dad at all, it's just the way he was, he would have stayed in his lane

another ten years, fifteen years, and probably would have sold out to a larger company or just retired on on what he had saved or or whatever. He he was not gonna take the risks had I not come into the business.

That's a good question. I you know, he put a collar on me on a lot of things. We were a great balance. I think I probably would have taken I I'm not sure had he not put a collar on me before the crash of eight, I probably would have overextended ourselves to the point where we might not have come out as well as we did when the when the when the housing market turned. I I think I I might have overextended

Taking on more risk, taking on too risk. So I think that's was there was a good balance between the two of us.

We probably had well, the the big thing about the financial crisis is we were kind of forced into buying real estate. And to to continue to grow, some of our competitors were financing builders by financing their ground. So we were going and and helping support smaller builders on their land purchases. so for example, a a small builder would want to buy a fifty lot subdivision. I'm just making up a number.

And he couldn't he couldn't pull it off because he didn't have the equity to put 20% in or he couldn't carry it on his books because he's, you know, he's got a few employees. And, you know, we never had any interest in getting in real estate, but we were kind of forced into it because all of our competitors were doing it. We were getting squeezed out of a lot of deals. so we started getting into builder financing. And I think probably at 2006.

We had six or seven hundred lots. we probably had ten to fifteen million dollars worth of ground lots, developed lots in our books.

And I'll give you an example of the last

The last deal that we did in 2008 to 2009, right? When the when everything collapsed, we bought a subdivision, developed lots of a hundred, about 150 lots for $60,000 per lot. That was kind of the going rate. It was a, I can't, I'm generalizing. It was about a $6 million deal, $7 million deal, maybe a bit more. We had all those lots and perfect location, great site, had a good.

Builder partner. And it it was it was, I mean, six months before Bear Stearns went under or before, you know, everything just dissolved. And all the banks were coming in and foreclosing on every builder known to man. and they foreclosed on all the banks too that were holding a bunch of real estate. So we had these lots on the books for sixty thousand dollars per lot.

The FDIC came in and shut down a bank that held all the lots across the street from us. Exact same lots, exact same frontage. It's like a picture of ours. They sold them for $6,000 to the market. So all of a sudden, your comps went from $60,000 on your books, and your comps that the banks are looking at went down to $6,000. And all the banks are in worse trouble than we are.

And they're all wanting capital because you know the FDIC's looking at all their assets and saying, guys, your assets are overvalued on your books. You gotta write all this stuff down. And the banks are coming to us saying, Hey, you know that seven million dollar loan that you guys have on these lots? Those lots are only worth a million bucks. write a check. You know, and when your business is already struggling, you know, to write a six million dollar check to to try to push the prices down to get your equity in line, it it's an impossibility.

And that's when a lot of these builders were just tossing the keys. And the people that were not in the industry have absolutely no idea how bad it was. and it had

well I I was sitting on some bank boards. I was sitting on a bank board at the time, and I remember going into the the meeting and holding up the business journal in St. Louis, and it had the list of all the builders. I think there was twenty five or thirty builders on the list at that time.

And I held up the list and I said, guys, look at this list. 50% of these guys are not going to be in business in the next 12 months. And everybody was laughing at me, going, Yeah, whatever. They're they're fine, blah, blah. I bet if I look back on it, 90% of the builders disappeared. You know, our revenues, you look we lost 90% of our business. Nothing we did. They just went out of business. And your accounts receivable is a disaster because you know you have to lean everything because they're upside down, because they were robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I would drive around in the entire market just to look for foundations to try to bid and there was nothing going on. you know, half built subdivision, half built houses, display houses that had weeds up to the the you know, the front porch. it was awful.

I we we had to make some decisions. I'm not gonna say we were close to losing everything because my dad had made good decisions over the years. He he was a pretty frugal guy. So we had some decent equity that we could back up a lot of things. but we didn't make some decisions. You know, we we sold one of our facilities in on the Missouri side to free up cash. my dad had a house in Florida that he elected to sell to free up some cash.

You know, we had to write some big checks. to the bank wasn't just gonna let us off the hook, like they did with a lot of the other builders. A lot of the builders just tossed the keys across the table and said, you know, you're we're done, out of here. It's all yours. Well, we weren't in that situation because we had it we had real assets that the bank could come after. so we had to figure out a way to survive. And that's when things exploded for us.

we

Well, yeah, that's that's where I'm kinda gonna go with this. We knew we were in a bad situation. We had all these lots and there were no builders left in town. The banks could not sell lots one at a time to builders. They had to sell big blocks to investor groups because the FDIC wasn't gonna let them be there, they weren't gonna be in the lot business. They they were gonna have to sell blocks. So they were selling these at wholesale prices to, you know, vulture investors.

So here we are sitting with all these lots saying, okay, we've got a lumber company. We build trusses. We build floors. We do the whole thing. and by the way, we got this carpentry company too. And we've got a bunch of builders who can't buy big blocks of lots, but they're starting to sell houses one at a time, two at a time. We went to a lot of the builders and said, Hey guys, we got lots. We're not a bank. We can sell them to you one at a time. We can sell them to you two at a time. We can hold them until you actually have a contract.

But you're going to use us for all your material, all your floors, and your labor. and we'll sell you these lots. And here we go. 2009, still terrible. 2010 starts

Yeah, it was more mine. My dad was my dad was in panic mode at that time. he you know, he he he didn't know what to do. but I was out on the streets. I literally was out on the streets talking to talking to whoever I could.

Hey, got a few lots here, got a few lots there. What can we make a deal? you know, my dad was pretty convinced that we were, we were done. so we're we're selling lots one at a time to people and locking them in on the whole thing. So we took a lot that we knew we were gonna take a big loss on, you know, $25,000, $30,000 per lot. We'd sell them that lot at $25,000, $30,000 when it was worth 60 six months before, but we would also get a you know, $100,000 lumber package.

and a hundred thousand dollar carpentry package out of it. So we can make up some of that loss on that on that lot side.

And you know, two thousand ten comes around and it it gets a little bit better. Instead of these guys coming in and buying two lots, they buy five lots from us. And then some of these all these guys that lost their jobs

I didn't I never did. I I think I just I think at some point probably in about two thousand thirteen, two thousand fourteen, I looked around and we had six hundred employees and cranking and s and and realized that we did something huge, that we went in to the downturn completely underwater, red tape, bleeding everywhere, with fifty employees at the time.

And we as we went, all these great people were getting laid off and fired from their jobs. And we knew everybody we knew every player in the market and we started picking off all these good guys. And we took a risk. We had to, because we did have a little bit of work. We couldn't do it all ourselves. And we started hiring all these tremendous, all this tremendous talent out in the field. And we put to work.

I don't think we

had the option. I you know, I was I was in a situation where I realized, you know, I had I had I could go back to practice in law. You know, I I I had

it. It was my dad. You know, I'm not gonna abandon my mom and my dad. There's no way. You know, I felt like I got him into that because I was pushing that direction. You know, I was pushing into getting bigger, getting manufacturing, building a new facility. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then everything exploded. And there was there was never a thought in my mind.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And I think it goes back to the what I said before, Brad, is

When you're in the situation that I was in, there's no alternative. You you you have no decision. I you you gotta get up in the morning, you gotta figure it out. It's that simple. You you you don't even you don't even think about

You you you you have failure in the back of your head and that's your driving force.

You you you think about your mom and dad and your dad coming from absolutely nothing. I'm talking, slept on the couch in a depression era family with two families in a two-bedroom house with one toilet, and his shower was a hose above the drain in the basement. And this is a guy that lived the American dream that built a company just by hard work, no education. And here I No. No.

No. And you know, that's that's that's a tough bill to swallow. And you know how close I am w to my family. It wasn't gonna happen. It just wasn't gonna happen. And you know, I had to have a lot of tough meetings with lenders. You know, I had to sit in some big rooms with a lot of lawyers and, you know, try to work things out when they weren't they were probably they being the banks, they were in more trouble than we were, you know, and but they got government money from the TARP and and all the things that that happened back then and here we are this this company

You know, I I had to pull out a couple of lawyer cards on literally loan documents that they had screwed up in the process during the go-go years. And I said, hey guys, you weren't applying money to these loans in the accurate way. If you if you come barreling down my throat, I'm coming right back at you. And I mean, I you know, I I had to put that in practice. You know, my my background in in in what I had done legally, it was a it was an unbelievably tough time. But there was no alternative. There

We were not gonna fail.

yeah, I it it's one of those situations where you start teaching yourself that you can survive anything if you really put your mind to it. Now, granted, there's situations where it just become impossible. You know, a lot of companies that don't have a lot of flexibility or are owners that aren't willing to take additional risk or put more money in. You know, sometimes there's a business decision that you have to, like we talked about before, throw the keys across the table.

but in our situation, you know, is our family. It was our family business, it was my parents, it was everything that we worked for. looking back, it was, you know, it wasn't a housing crisis, it was a housing depression. Everything was in terrible shape. But we were in a situation where we just we we had no choice. We had to survive. So yeah, looking back on it, backing us into a corner where we had to make decisions.

That were life or death for the company, it it kind of it did turn out to be one of the best things that ever happened to us because we knew that if we kept fighting, that we could probably fight through anything. And we just we did. We had no alternative. So

you know, the the one risk that we took was adding more payroll through that process and finding the best people in the market. I think looking back, that was the opportunity, the biggest opportunity that we had during the downturn was.

finding great people that had been laid off from companies that just couldn't do it.

Think it well, yeah. You what? It's a pretty good analogy. I didn't fold. I think that's the best thing. I I can't say we doubled down because there was no doubling. We we didn't

have we didn't have double to put in, but we definitely didn't fold. when there were situations that we probably could have folded and and walked away, you know, try to negotiate a situation where you're at least saving, you know, a quarter of your business or or some sort of equity involved in it. But but we we just refused to fold.

And you you look back at it and you just you start thinking, Wow, we did get through it and we came out better the other

Two thousand sixteen. Yeah, two thousand sixteen. Yeah.

It it was, you know, he had had heart problems. And that was another reason why I kind of s kept staying in the business. And I probably should have covered that a little bit. one of the reasons I probably stuck around was my dad had his first heart situation in about nineteen ninety nine, where he had to have his first valve replaced. And as an only child, I it was kind of one of those situations where I we were all a little bit afraid that if something went bad, that the somebody had to run the place.

So I think that played into my decision making process. I I probably should hit on that a little bit more, but that played in my decision making process a little bit too because it was scary. 99, when you get a valve replaced, you know, it wasn't it wasn't as successful as as you know it is today. so that played into a little bit more. But, you know, he had had some heart problems, nothing major, but he had rheumatic fever when he was a when he was a child. And that apparently affected his heart.

You know, 'cause back in the in the forties, you know, nobody treated anything. You got sick and you stayed at home and they put cold towels on you and and you you got s you got better. Well, it must have damaged his heart along the way. And so he struggled with his valves in his later years. And in two thousand sixteen he was he was having a lot of trouble breathing and and the doctor said you're gonna have to have another valve replacement. And he wasn't thinking clearly at the time.

He was struggling with decision making and he was getting very, very angry with a lot of people. you know, and I I you know, we had to tell my dad he needed to stay home for a little while because he was yeah, he was chasing off employees, he was chasing off customers and that was a that was a huge conflict between

my dad and I at the end. And yeah, I said, Dad, we we gotta get healthy and then we can readjust and and get back and and and tackle this thing t together again as a team.

And that was about six months before his his surgery because he was really struggling. He was not getting any oxygen to

to his key artery, his brain, basically. And he he was he was just failing quickly and went in for the surgery and he did make it. you know, I'm unfortunately I'm very convinced that he he was a victim of a a a massive malpractice problem. but you know, what it happened. You know, he was not in good shape.

because of his heart. He was in good great physical shape, took care of himself his whole life. But they put a valve in him and the valve was a catastrophic failure. the valve never worked. You know, it it basically failed when they put it in him. The the valve never even started pumping. And you know, we were standing right next to him and he was with the physical therapist a couple hours after he woke up from the surgery and literally just fell over dead, right next to my mom and I. And you know, that was that was that was really, really, really traumatic.

because we thought that, you know, we were gonna get back on the right path with him

health wise and and the company was doing great at the time. And we were adding employees and you know, we were doing fantastic. the company, you know, we just were building an unbelievable reputation in in the whole Midwest, not just St. Louis, but we were going into different markets and you know, it was like somebody hit me in the face with a baseball bat. think that you're you you think that everything's working well.

besides the little hiccups that we had between the two of us managing the business, you know, we were excited for the future. I was excited for the future. and bam, just something hits you like that.

N no, nineteen

ninety s nineteen ninety seven. Nineteen ninety eight is when we started working. Over twenty.

Well, yeah, th he passed away in ninety six. So twenty years, yeah.

Huge void. You know, you

just go by you go by his office and you know, we've got some people that have been with us for forty years now. I mean, th this when you say family business, w we are the poster child for family business. Our our upper management team has been with us forever. And he was such a you know, you knew my dad. He when when my dad walked into our room, you you knew he was in the room. He he had a

presence. He was just he was an omnipresent force. And

you you don't fill those voids, in in any way, shape, or form. That he's gone forever and to this day, he's been gone for ten years. And, you know, I think about him all the time. You just don't you you don't stop. And the way he passed away, it was extremely traumatic. And I witnessed some things when he passed away and they were trying to revive him and it it was just a horrible, horrible, horrible scene. And you think about these things all the time and

You know, he's your dad, he's your best friend, he's your coworker, he's your partner, he's your he's the entire life, besides your your family, your kids, your wife, your mom. but he he has all that, but he's also your business partner that you're with every day. It it's it was it was extremely tough. And to this day, ten years later, you know, I I miss him.

I think at that time, you know, I was in my early forties. At that time, I was pretty much running every aspect of the business. So that transition wasn't difficult. The the one thing that he did a lot of was buying, which in our business is huge because it's a commodity. And he was a really good buyer on the lumber side because lumber is extremely volatile. And if you don't buy it at the right spots, you can get yourself in trouble real quick. So I I had to teach myself that a little bit, but I had been around it the whole time.

So I you know it wasn't that hard of a transition.

I wish he was here. I I think

I think, you know, I I think where is he to to bounce things off of and argue about? Because that was

usually what happened is we'd start fighting about something. yeah. That I didn't have anybody. I still don't have anybody right now. I take that back. I got some really good people that that are around me at the office that I really rely on. People that have been with us forever, got just great people that work with us. But just having

my dad not there, I I didn't realize how much I relied just as him as a sounding board or confidence builder or I don't know what the right term is, just the backstop. You know, he he you know, he was just that guy that I could always go go bounce things off. Even if we didn't agree, at least he was there. I think that was probably the biggest part of of of when he passed away.

Ask ask our employees.

Yeah, I I think I think most of everybody at our company would say, Dear God,

you are your dad. we were v we're v very much alike. I think it is a good thing. It is a good

thing. you know, I've gotten a little bit crabbier, a little bit a little bit not sure what the right term is, a little more

old man attitude. I

I I tolerate a lot less. you just change over the years. You know, you're you're I've been through a lot in the business. people look at what we've built and we have a big company now. it is a big operation. Our payroll is almost a million dollars a week. and I find myself looking over my shoulder more now.

about what's coming behind me than I think I did when I was young. because you work your whole life and you're just afraid of some something out of your control that could happen and wipe everything out. Everybody I think everybody looks at people that are perceived to be successful in business and think, man, what a great situation. God, it's so nice to be able to take off a vacation whenever you want.

man, they're driving a nice car. Look at their house. Look at, you know, they can buy whatever they want. You know what? There's a big price to that. There's a big price to everything that you have. And and sometimes to be perfectly honest, I look back and I say, was it all worth it? and there's days, Brad, that I'm not sure I know the answer to that because

wish I hadn't argued with my dad as much.

You you neglect yeah I I don't want to say neglect. I didn't I've never neglected my family. I've been at everything. But but I'm sometimes not mentally there, Brad. You know,

I'm not mentally there for my kids. I I am somewhere else. I've never missed anything in my life for my kids. I d don't get me wrong, but you you you're not there sometimes.

And you your health. You know, I mean I'm on more high blood pressure medicine than than

It's awful. You know, I mean

look at us, buddy. I mean we we're we've been best friends since we were kids. I mean, you I got

a lot of gr a lot more gray now and you know, it beats you up. I don't know. I d

I don't know. I

I don't know. That's a great question. am I happy? Yeah, I'm happy. I'm I'm happy with my life. I'm happy with things I do, but it would I be happier

not having exactly what I have right now, I there's a good possibility I could be. because the stress of doing everything I've done up to this point and still waking up every every day and having to fight the fight and fight the battle and and wake up in the middle of the night and worried about whatever. You know, the just the other night I woke up at 5 30 in the morning and I was gonna go fishing and I got a I got an alert on my phone that we had a fire at the at the office.

you know, I mean, things like that happen. People we had employees that were breaking in in the middle of the night and stealing from us. you know, there's a there's a huge cost to it. and I don't want to sit here and and and think, woe is me, because that's ridiculous. Because many, many, many, many people have it a whole lot worse and struggle to pay the bills and and have health problems, serious health problems. But I I I will tell people all the time that perception of success.

is not reality all the times. it it's it's tough. It's tough. And you have to give up a whole lot to have this this goal that you can never reach. You know, no matter what you say, well if I do I remember the days, if we could do twelve million a year, I'd be happy.

And then it changed to $15 million a year, I'll be happy. And then it changed to $25 million a year, I'd be happy. Then it changed to $50 million a year. I'll be happy. It it just keeps going up and up and up. And you you never get to that goal line and you can never say, I made it, because it's never there. And that's where the pressure stays on top of you. And call that a competitive thing, call that drive, call that stupidity. I don't know what the right word is.

But that that's the cost.

We've yeah, so I I coached

I coached a private school in St. Louis called I C D S. I've had a lot of success coaching hockey. all my teams, I I think in in thirty three years we were looking at our numbers. I think we've had in on our high school teams we've had two losing seasons.

I've had players and I say, you know, we w another good friend of ours, Matt Rubis and I, started a shamanade and I d I don't make any claim that we coached kids that went to the NHL when they were around. But you know, the lot of those kids that came through the program that we were involved in. I was I was coaching the JP program at that. We had four or five kids in that era that ended up playing in the NHL and to watch them develop was incredible. but then I went and started coaching on my own.

and you know, I've had kids through my programs that have played D one at Harvard. I have right now a player that I coach that plays for the Edmonton Oilers, kids that we've touched that have gone to every level of hockey from the ACHA college level all the way up to the NHL, had tremendous success. kids in our program go to some of the best universities in the country.

have great relationships with them. I I would say I've been extremely successful coaching hockey. what do I consider myself, a hockey coach or a business owner?

I take a lot of pride in being a hockey coach. Put it that way.

three to f yeah, three

to four times. We're usually between games and practices six days a week.

Eleven o'clock games on Friday night. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that stuff.

Because every year during an alumni game, I see fifty or sixty kids come back, kids, they're men now, they're in their forties, come back and hug me and call me coach. And I can look around on the ice and know that I've had some impact, hopefully in a positive way, to every player on the ice.

When I see people at the rink that are have their kids and their coaching and they come up and give me a hug and say, Hey coach, and introduce me to their kids and say this was my coach. that's why I do it. it

on, we're we're we're competitors. but I I've also learned over the years, I think as a young coach, I I measured my success on wins and losses and championships.

I don't anymore. I I measure my success and this almost sounds like some woke you know soft answer, but I measure my success that my players come back and tell me that they had they learned something that brought them success and that some of the best times and best memories that they've had were because of hockey and the team

that we we played on. And that to me

is more important because nobody remembers the wins and losses. They remember the locker room.

You know, Brad, that's a that's a a great question. If I if I was talking to myself

When I was on vacation with my family in 2006, when I was on my phone and my kids were out playing in the snow, I would tell myself to put the phone down and go play with your kids. And again, I'm not saying that I neglected my kids, but I'm I'm saying that I wasn't always present for my kids. I would tell myself to not worry so much that.

you can only control so much in your life that you have to you have to accept that it's not always gonna work perfectly. I would tell myself to trust trust your instincts. And if you do everything in your power, odds are it's probably gonna work out for you. even if you don't think it's that the the outcome is is perfect, as you and I sit here and we look back at our lives

We should appreciate everything that we did to get there. Like I said a few minutes ago, there there is no goal line. it it's the path that gets you there. That is the the the journey. enjoy the I think I would tell myself, enjoy the journey a little bit more, as much as you possibly can. It's not always gonna be fun. It's gonna be a lot of long hours, it's gonna be a lot of waking up in the middle of the night.

But enjoy the process a little bit more than you did, John. don't don't beat yourself up so much.

Yeah.

I think

No. No. I think the I think the competitor in me, I think the the the ego, I think the

The no quit mentality. at some point do I want to stop? Yeah, I do. I don't know where that is. And I think in 10 years or 15 years or 20 years, I'm probably gonna tell you the exact same thing, you know, and and and whatever number I'm at, or how big I am, or if we completely fell on our face and we completely failed, I'll look back and and probably tell you the exact same thing. I should have told myself it.

fifty four to calm down and take deep breaths and and enjoy the ride.

I I don't

think any I don't think anybody in in a position that I'm in will ever There is no neutral. You're going forward or you're going backwards. And I refuse to go backwards. Now you're gonna have some moments where you're gonna get pulled back but you you got to go forward. I I just you you can't

You can't accept defeat. I if there's any possible way around it, just can't accept it.

No problem.

Yep. See you buddy.